Topic: Shit or Shinola ?

[James]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinola

I'd have to say... I'm please to see that my bad-boy vibes are still resonating clearly though the threads of the old PL!

Tell you what Stuka; I'll promise never to fly helicopters if you'll promise to stop being a computer science expert.

Heroic wrote something worth noting...

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=86482&postcount=46

You could be the rightest person in all of righteous rightdom, and if you were a dick about it, nobody's going to listen to you.

I try to be nice about it when I see someone making a mistake, but I've got a long history in computing, electronics, coding and even in performance art, and sometimes it's not a question of opinion; in science and technology, sometimes things are Just Wrong. If you're Just Wrong, science gives you this wonderful facility to test your beliefs, find them wanting, and say "okay, that's science, now I modify my opinion and continue with my life."

Moderating a forum that revolves around (really quite hairy) physics and (really quite experimental) engineering should be about science, and if you can't get your head around that, a minor application of the cluebat should be applied until your attitude changes.

Okay, so I'm a hard liner.

Yep. I'm a dick. Get over it.... or not. I really don't care.

Now let's talk about science and fact.

Fact: I met and stayed in contact with Matt Polack in 2004, while he was the chair of the ILDA Standards and Technical Specifications Committee.

Fact: At that time, the only ILDA file format posted for public use was 0, 1 & 2. There was no way to get more than 250-ish colors in a single frame of laser vector art (0 or 1).

Fact: I had already implemented all of that in my code in 2003, well before I ever met Matt.

Fact: Matt described to me over the phone how unique, 24-bit color per vector was going to be added to the concepts of the ILDA file format that already existed. What he described was a perfectly logical extension to the original idea. This idea was most illuminating to me. I restructured everything in my code to accommodate.

Fact: I waited until ILDA posted the new proposal for the extension of their file format. I read it to make sure that it was what I was told it would be. It was. I announced that LaserBoy was compliant with the new proposed standard. I asked for some example files from anyone else. I got two files from Matt via ILDA. I could not open them in LaserBoy. I examined them in a hex editor. The section headers for the new format 3 were different than all the other format sections headers. I checked the ILDA website for the posted format spec again and it had been changed.

Fact: The first proposal for extending the ILDA file format to include 24-bit color per vector data was format 3. It was posted on the ILDA website for the public sometime in 2004. The PROPOSAL was stated to be OPEN for PUBLIC questions or comments.

Fact: NONE of this technology was of my own design. ALL of the file format ideas came from ILDA.

Fact: I had a question about the proposed format 3 the very moment I saw that it had been changed. My question has been completely ignored for more than 4 years.

Where is the science in all of this?

I don't know! I wrote this back in January of 2005.

http://www.akrobiz.com/laserboy/ilda_file_format.html

I honestly thought that it would so obviously point out how WRONG the changed format 3 was that ILDA would just fix it. I even got a personal phone call from Patrick Murphy about it!

They didn't fix it.

Here's some science for you:

Using a different section header for format 3 is wrong. It has no benefit. It takes extra computations to find it. It introduces the possibility for LARGE memory use miscalculations. Wanting to do it this way has NEVER been explained by anyone.

I will ask again...

WHY WOULD ANYONE DO IT LIKE THIS ?

In the absence of any answer, let's assume that format 3 was fixed; put back to its original, logical construction.

PROBLEM SOLVED !!!

The original goal of a revision to the ILDA file format was to EXTEND the file specification to include the ability to store unique 24-bit color values for every point in a frame. Format 3 with a uniform section header is a perfectly logical extension to the concepts that already exist in formats 0, 1 & 2. Thus it is an EXTENSION to the concept.

Format 4 & 5 do not need to exist. They are NOT logical extensions of the original formats 0, 1 & 2. They REPLACE these concepts with a totally new hybrid data structure. They offer no interoperability, no leverage, no legacy connection, NOTHING to the original file format concepts. Therefore format 4 & 5 fail to comply with the primary goal of the file revision: TO EXTEND.

Does anybody out there have the "scientific BALLS" to explain why using a non-uniform section header for format 3 is the RIGHT way to do it?

Why do we need formats 4 & 5, other than the fact that it's just a totally different way to do it wrong?

This is science. Remember?

James. 

[James]

You gotta love it!

http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=86690&postcount=62

My name and / or idealogy has been brought up several times by a few different people on the PL up to this very day!

I haven't posted on the PL since January 14th.

More than a month later, on February 22nd, I got banned because Gary got on a thread and begged admin to ban HIM.

And still, I can kick up dust on the PL in a thread called Community "Crap Filtering" system. !!!

You can't make that shit up! 

That's hilarious! 

I RULE! 

James. 

PS. What's the punchline?

Stuka is an ILDA member !!! 

Perfect! 

[BlinkenLights]

hate to say it but i agree with gary here..
its nice to have a place where we are  unencumbered by personal advocacy.

This argument even being brought up again makes me cringe..

[James]

That's nice.

I guess I should expect that from "this" forum!

It was created by and is frequented by the dissenters.

I realize that everyone (including myself) gets tired of me bitching about format 3.

Everyone else seems to think that the issue has no merit. It's a done deal. We all have formats 4 & 5. Get over it.

That's bullshit.

Anyone who has ever developed code around the ILDA file format has run into the same issue.

A new piece of code comes out and the first question about it is "Why can't I open the file in other laser software ?"

The ILDA file format specification is supposed to be the answer to that question ~ not the problem.

This is the first bullet point of the ILDA Mission Statement:
..................................

ILDA promotes the use of laser displays in the international marketplace through awards programs, publications, technology standards and a code of ethics.

..................................

From what I understand, the issue of extending the file format to include 24-bit color per point started in 2002.

Back then, the file format spec was available to everyone.

I had no problem finding it on the ILDA site and other places on the web.

Now, seven years later, it is no longer generally available to the public. Developers have to rely on someone slipping them a copy in an email.

The "standard" file format spec has been rewritten in an attempt to change history! Format 2 has been a part of it for many years. Because it was never properly implemented by the "majors" it has recently been relabeled as optional and not universally supported.

With no format 2, the file can convey vector art in ONLY 62 predefined colors.

The ILDA file format standard is supposed to be the common ground that we all stand on. Ideally, it should be there to inspire new developers. It should level the playing field. No matter what crazy ideas a coder comes up with, at least some of that should be universally translatable into a format that all other laser application might freely choose to implement.

How could it possibly take seven years and multiple reformations of the tech committee to [not] come up with a simple, logical extension to the original idea?

There are a few people in ILDA who want to destroy the idea of an open file format standard. And they've just about done it.

The ILDA file format is something that is always being questioned. It is a blur. As such it is a very unattractive format for any new developer.

If you can't see how this issue is really the core of why The LaserBoy Forum exists, that is truly unfortunate. This site was created to encourage new development by independent coders. The ONE THING that connects all of us independant coders IS the ILDA file format.

I will not stop defending history, math, logic and the truth.

I have no voice on the PL and I would not post there anymore anyway.

All I have EVER wanted is a fair, unbiased, purely logical, scientific explanation.

It would also be nice to know that there are some other people out there who get it and agree with me.

James. 

[James]

0 + 1 + 2 + (the next logical thing) = 3.

It really is THAT simple!

2 & 3 are almost exactly the same thing!

4 & 5 are NOT compatible with 0, 1, & 2 and can not coexist.

It is wrong to use the .ild extension on this kind of data.

Formats 4 & 5 serve only one purpose. That is to PROVE that a uniform section header is a good idea, as they both use the same 32 byte header as 0, 1, & 2; (but not the fucked-up 3!).

What I really want is a solid goal; a world standard that makes sense. Anyone who offers laser software can implement anything they want, but it should be based on a known, published, open standard. Software should clearly be able to indicate exactly what kinds of files they are able to open and save.

Since 4 & 5 are totally new data structures, that have NO historical connection to anything ever found in an ILDA file before, why not just go all the way to wave for your future development?

It can contain EXACTLY EVERY BIT of information found in a 4 or 5 and a WHOLE LOT MORE!

You're a developer!

Can't you see there is WAY MORE flexibility in wave?

Ever wonder why we have STANDARDS in the computer science industry?

James. 

[BlinkenLights]

to defend that specific point.. if I try to open a DOC file made in word 2003 in an old copy of word 97 or even the original wordpad software it magicaly knows that the doc was saved in a format newer than the ones it can read and warns that the data may not convert exactly and that 'some formating data may be lost"

thats because the file says "im an office 11 file" and word 97 knows that 11 is bigger than 8 and reads what it can understand.

[meandean]

  I love good drama... This is better than talk radio!!!

[Fanny Pack]

I removed my comments because this is all a rehash of things already said and I really don't want to be a part of it.  Sorry for making the thread a little hard to follow by doing so but I don't see the point in it and don't wish to contribute.

[meandean]

   Oh spare us, this is supposed to be fun... Don't be a Party Pooper!!! Go ahead and air that dirty laundry.

[James]

... and reads what it can understand.

Yes.

James.   

[James]

I removed my comments because this is all a rehash of things already said and I really don't want to be a part of it.  Sorry for making the thread a little hard to follow by doing so but I don't see the point in it and don't wish to contribute.

That is unfortunate.

It breaks the flow of this thread.

It also removes a lot of significant historical information that was well encapsulated.

The fact that you disagree with me and think that format 3 sucks is irrelevant.

Your depiction of the technology and history were reasonably accurate.

James. 

[BlinkenLights]

agreed.
While i completely disagree with this thread being here.. i also disagree with removing your post.

[James]

BTW The purpose of suggesting that you might use wave instead of format 4 or 5 was not to promote the use of wave.

It was to ask you if you really are interested in the merits of a better way to store laser vector art data or are you still somewhat interested in the possibility of someone being able to create something in Spaghetti and actually be able to open it in other applications.

That's why we have STANDARDS.

James. 

[BlinkenLights]

lets talk about the flash style file.....

[Fanny Pack]

I don't have any motivation to have Spaghetti create things that can be opened by other software.  There was a time when I did but not now.  I will be adding a drawing utility to my software suite so that simple images can be created.  The file format won't be ILDA but Spaghetti (and probably Wet Noodles) will be able to use them directly.