Topic: Believe It Or Not !!!

[meandean]

  I heard somewhere that MS offers a "managed C++" that is a bit watered-down and does not allow certain key
provisions... Any truth in that?

[Fanny Pack]

C++ was derived from C because C wasn't good enough.

[Fanny Pack]

  I heard somewhere that MS offers a "managed C++" that is a bit watered-down and does not allow certain key
provisions... Any truth in that?

Managed C++ has been around for years.  It is not watered down C++, though.  It is an extension to full blown C++ and allows you to write applications that run either totally in managed code or in both managed and native code.  But you can still use the compiler (Visual C++) to create native code if you don't use any of the managed C++ syntax.

[meandean]

  I guess this is just a bit over my head... Should I take the red pill or the blue one... Just how deep does the rabbit hole go? What exactly do the boys at MS use to code Windows itself???

[BlinkenLights]

.net REQUIRES a framework. c++ (when compiled) is NATIVE code.

so i guess that c++ is just plain old computer science, no matter what OS you compile it for..

the thing is that c++ can be compiled for any modern OS where as .net is limited to windows.

That being said, .net is limited to running on top of software (windows, .Net framework) where as you could write an entire OS in c++ 

[James]

C++ was derived from C because C wasn't good enough.

C was developed in the late 60's to be the system level development language for UNIX. It is most definitely "good enough".

C++ was developed many years later to migrate the solid and familiar concepts and syntax of C to the new ideas of object oriented programming.

C++ is generally considered too complex and too easily misused to be "safe" for system level programming; like device drives, kernels, memory managements, file systems, etc...

Almost all of Linux, MacOS, UNIX, DOS, Windows, OS/2, etc... etc... etc... (probably every modern OS in use today) is written in C with the possibility of some parts written directly in processor specific assembler.

C++ is typically reserved for the applications that run within the OS.

C++ was actually created to make it possible to write windows like applications; in other words, event driven, human interactive GUIs.

"Managed C++" is an attempt to simplify C++ and remove some of the risks involved with "pure" C++. The main risk is memory leaks. It is very easy to take memory from the OS and forget to give it back in C++.

That is why it's OK for applications that get run and get shut down. Once the application is shut down all the memory gets returned to the OS. This is obviously not the case with system level code that runs all of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B

C# is purely a Microsoft idea and was created to bridge the gap between MS Visual BASIC and MS Visual C++. A layer of ready-to-go code exists (actually written in C & C++) called the Common Language Infrastructure. Visual BASIC was a bit too under capable and Visual C++ was a bit too over capable. So they split the difference and came up with something that looks a bit like C++ but won't let you get into the kind of trouble that you can get with pure C++.

C# is C++ with training wheels.

C# was also developed so that MS would no longer have to answer to any ANSI standards for code or compiler compliance. It is an attempt to obsolete C++; which they did not invent and can not control.

Good luck with that!

James. 

[Fanny Pack]

Alec is just flat out wrong.  James, you have the facts mostly straight but then you jump to retarded conclusions (like MS is trying to obsolote C++ and C# is C++ with training wheels.)

C++ is the more powerful language if you need it.  I could benefit from the power of C++ a lot more than you could with LaserBoy.  LaserBoy could be written in QBasic since it doesn't really have any performance requirements.  Yet, my application runs just fine in C#, computing and spitting out frames in real time.  So, who cares if it is watered down a bit when it does what I need and easier?

I didn't come here to argue C++ vs C# with people who don't even know how to use .NET.  I only came here to reply to your FLTK post and answer why it wasn't the best thing to use for Windows development.  I didn't say that C# was the answer, did I?

[Fanny Pack]

Oh yea, Alec, you might want to research NGEN.EXE a bit before you talk much more about native code.

You should also look around and find out why it is better to compile code on the target machine as opposed to some developers machine in San Jose, CA.  (Maybe something to do with CPU optimizations??)

[drlava]

There is one thing going for FLTK over MFC for windows development and that is that the free microsoft compilers support it while they don't support MFC.  In fact, any compiler (such as Dev-Cpp) can use fltk.

[meandean]

LaserBoy could be written in QBasic since it doesn't really have any performance requirements.

  I once used QBasic... I got tired of having only about 256K of memory to work with, not to mention
sub-VGA quality video- it's why I learned to write to bitmap so I could see some real color. Kinda hard
to process a 2Gb wave file (in less than 13 sec)  or blow over a Gb/sec (byte, not bit) to video RAM with
those resources!

[James]

LaserBoy could be written in QBasic since it doesn't really have any performance requirements.

LaserBoy most definately does have performance requirements.

It is able to play waves in the display in real time and faster.

In the near future, it will be able to communicate directly with the sound card; like it did when it was Linux only.

LaserBoy has ALWAYS been built for speed!

James. 

[Fanny Pack]

There is one thing going for FLTK over MFC for windows development and that is that the free microsoft compilers support it while they don't support MFC.  In fact, any compiler (such as Dev-Cpp) can use fltk.

That's a good point.  I didn't realize that the Express version doesn't support MFC or ATL.  I have never really looked into free compilers since I get all of the pro stuff for free.

[James]

GCC is perhaps the greatest gift of anyone to all of humanity and Dev-C++ is the second greatest gift, because it is GCC for Windows! 

http://gcc.gnu.org/

http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html

James. 

[Fanny Pack]

I like how Dev-C++ was written in Delphi.  Awesome.

[BlinkenLights]

Gary, (since we are using first names )
NGEN looks pretty cool.. im not quite sure exactly how it all works but it looks like its a mini compiler that compiles .net into native machine code (is that correct)

you mentioned that its better to compile for the machine rather than get binaries from the developer.. but does that not require the source? it may be different in .Net (im not well versed in .Net) but at any rate, LB comes with source that can easily be compiled on the host machine.. so thats kinda a moot point.. but NGEN looks like something that would make just about ANY app run better.. are you using it in the spaghetti installer???