Topic: Exactly why this forum exists

[BlinkenLights]

the free bits in color could be used for things like opacity as it applies to Hyena's suggestion

[Fanny Pack]

No, because the opacity would apply to shapes and there is no notion of shapes in the wav laser format that those guys are talking about.  The next gen file I am thinking about would be more like a flash file.  Would it make sense to represent a flash file as a WAV file?  I am thinking about thinks much beyond just a series of points and colors.  I am thinking of ways to represent objects that have dimensions, colors, and physical properties.  I'm thinking of surfaces that have front sides and back sides.  A rotating rectangle might appear green on one side while blue on the other. 

Think of it this way.  You can take a picture of a car and then look at it.  But no matter how you turn the picture, you will never see the back side of the car.  You have lost that information.  That's what a laser wav file would be... just what you would see on the screen.  What I want is to maintain that information so that you can rotate the car and see the other sides, the insides, etc.

[Fanny Pack]

The primary benefit I see in wav is built-in audio synchronization and more channels for more colors or other things.  It can also contain information for reversing effects like color offset that have been applied to the wav. Finally it's (obviously) very compatible with audio dacs.  There are many things it can't do though.

Yes, I agree with that.  There really needs to be 3 different file types:
(1) The native drawing format which would ideally be something like a CAD file.
(2) An intermediate file that flattens the (1) into a 2D sequence of frames.
(3) An optimized WAV file that contains the audio and vector data.

#3 is really only useful if you are using a sound card, though.  But, I do see the benefit of it.

[BlinkenLights]

#3 is useful for ADAT as well dont forget.


I like your idea about the file types but i see it like this

There are MANY cad drawing tools out there that save in standard open file formats (dxf etc) so there is no need for a NEW cad style file

Z information can give you the entire car.

You can NOT draw solid objects with laser lines (only framework) so a line is a line is a line.

[Absolom]

This is true, when displaying, but if you lose the Z in the file, you lose all editing power.

[Absolom]

Plus, is you use a live program, your Z rotating effects are worthless.

[Fanny Pack]

#3 is useful for ADAT as well dont forget.
I like your idea about the file types but i see it like this
There are MANY cad drawing tools out there that save in standard open file formats (dxf etc) so there is no need for a NEW cad style file
Z information can give you the entire car.
You can NOT draw solid objects with laser lines (only framework) so a line is a line is a line.

ADAT?  Come on now.  Let me break out my 8-track player so we can have some music with that. 

There are plenty of vector formats but they always have to be converted to ILDA (or whatever) to be useful for laser display.  And the conversion is not always correct.  Maybe you can put restrictions or requirements on top of one of the exisiting formats and it could be a standard laser format. But, someone would have to define those restrictions and make a standard out of it.

Yea, Z information can give you the shape. But still there is no notion of objects.  Can you rotate the tires on the car with just Z info?  No.  You can only rotate the entire image.

You can only draw lines with lasers but you can make objects solid but defining shapes that are solid.  So, as one shape moves in front of another it hides the one behind.  There is no way to do that without adding more data to the file that defines which portion is the object and which portion is space.  You can also make objects half solid so that when an object moves in front of another object, the other object is seen, but not as brightly.  IE a pair of sunglasses.

[Absolom]

So, this would be almost like full 3D editing, like Lightwave or 3DS, but with wireframe style information for the laser ouput or output file?  Adding and subtracting things to your frame, much like objects in a 3D scene.  I like this.  Giving objects bones and joints... 

[Fanny Pack]

Plus, is you use a live program, your Z rotating effects are worthless.

Live software is actually what I am thinking about.  In that case I might have two files that have two different 3D shapes in them.  I would want to combine them while rotating one while making the other bounce up and down or something.  But, I wouldn't want to just make them draw on top of each other.  I would want want one to move in front of and behind the other so that they appear as two objects instead of just a bunch of criss crossing lines.  Also, I would want to be able to tweak blanking and that sort of thing as needed.  I can't think of how two WAV files with color offsets in them would really help me in this situation.   What I need is two files that defines shapes.  The software would take over from there to manipulate the shapes and to optimize the resulting 2D projection so that it is properly blanked and color corrected.  I guess I could write the resulting output to a streaming WAV file... but for what reason?  I just want to send it directly to the DACs API.

[Fanny Pack]

So, this would be almost like full 3D editing, like Lightwave or 3DS, but with wireframe style information for the laser ouput or output file?  Adding and subtracting things to your frame, much like objects in a 3D scene.  I like this.  Giving objects bones and joints... 

Exactly.  But limited in scope so that it applies to something that can be displayed with a laser, as opposed to something that can only be rendered on some high end video card on a 1600x1200 raster monitor.

[James]

The biggest benefit to using wave is that it has already been invented, years ago and there have been millions of man-hours spent designing operating systems, languages, drivers, software applications and hardware specifications that use WAVE!

We live in a world where we can get an 8 channel DAC for $22.50 !!!

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

Wave is an absolute measured information file format. It needs no interpretation. The information stored in the individual tracks needs only to be clocked out a DAC!

Oh and BTW, LaserBoy waves CAN contain Z and they can also be stripped down to the bare minimum of un-optomized points and saved that way; NOT ready for scanners, but small.

There are reasons to be interested in developing other file specifications that might be packaged with wave or even ild files, and certainly MP3 or other audio file formats, that go farther to describe the relationships of the collection of files and other abstract concepts that need to be interpreted, like a kind of dance choreography notation that describes the use and functionality of its parts over time.

James. 

[James]

I think Gary needs to spend a bit more time in LaserBoy land!

There are a LOT of things that LaserBoy can deduce about a 3D vector drawing that will allow you to control many aspects of individual elements within the drawing... and the list is growing. 

Never say never!

James. 

[Absolom]

Hahahahaha!!!  Straight from Wikipedia: "Pangolins can also emit a noxious smelling acid from glands near the anus".  Is this what Bill's banter can be considered as?    !

[James]

Just for the record...

I am NOT anti-Pangolin at all.

I'm sure it is a fine product that does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Pangolin is a company; for profit in a competitive market. They can do whatever they want. We don't HAVE to buy anything from them.

I'm anti-bullshit.

It just so happens that Bill is the mouthpiece for a lot of ILDA bullshit.

ILDA is an organization that is supposed to uphold its own mission statement and code of ethics; for all of the world, not just its own membership.

James. 

[Absolom]

That was my point.  The animal may be a good animal, but it sends off a smells.  Bills voice...